Well put, Undercover. Lots of faders, inactive, irregular, DF'd, and "dead weight." By "dead weight" I mean those who make 50-80% of the meetings, go out in service occasionally, don't reach out, and barely contribute financially (if at all). They're just taking up seats at the KH. Often, they're 2nd/3rd generation JWs. Not all of these folks have figured out the scam yet, but some have...and others are getting there.
Olin Moyles Ghost
JoinedPosts by Olin Moyles Ghost
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Faders are indeed a large army...
by undercover in...and i think it's starting to show.. i started a thread the other day about being hounded after several years of having successfully(?
) faded.
i've been taken aback a bit the recent developments but i'm making a new strategy...one that depends more on sticking to my guns and laying the cards on the table.
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Why the Society needs to have an interpretation for every prophecy
by Olin Moyles Ghost inthe "prophetic" books of the bible contain lots of wild imagery and vague predictions.
for example, daniel describes various periods of 1260, 1290, 1335, and 2300 days.
revelation contains discussions of a variety of wild beasts, trumpet blasts, etc.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
The "prophetic" books of the Bible contain lots of wild imagery and vague predictions. For example, Daniel describes various periods of 1260, 1290, 1335, and 2300 days. Revelation contains discussions of a variety of wild beasts, trumpet blasts, etc. While the meaning of these items are a source of vigorous debate among Christians, the WT Society has put forth official positions which, of course, must be accepted by JWs.
Of course, a dirty little secret is that most JWs have no idea what the Society's interpretations of the 1260, 1290, 1335, and 2300 days are. They would probably be surprised to know that:
- The 1260 days of Daniel 12:7 represent 1914-1918
- The 1290 days of Daniel 12:11 represent 1918-1921
- The 1335 days of Daniel 12:12 represent 1922-1926
- The 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 represent 1938-1944
When you read the explanation in the Society's Daniel book, the explanations are laughable--especially the 2300 days (hint: it involves some WT articles and a change to the Society's corporate charter). And then there's the embarrassing doctrine about the 7 trumpet blasts of Revelation being 7 district conventions in the 1920s. As a believing JW, I often wondered: why does the Society feel the need to come up with an explanation for everything? Why can't they simply say they're not sure?
I'm sure there's not one single answer to this question. For example, arrogance no doubt plays a part, as does inertia--once a doctrine has been taught for decades, there is some reluctance to change it unless a compelling need arises. But I expect there are some folks in the GB/Writing Dept. who are not convinced by these interpretations, and would perhaps prefer a more reasonable "we're not sure" position.
I think the main reason is the Society's need to project "unity" of worship. If the Society simply said "we're not sure what the 2300 days of Daniel and the 7 trumpet blasts of Revelation represent," it would open the door for Witnesses to speculate, which would undermine the perception of unity. We've seen this already with regard to the identity of the King of the North (here, the WTS was forced to back off its interpretation because of changing world events in the 1990s and 2000s).
This unity/uniformity of belief is one of the factors that the Society uses to "prove" that JWs are the true religion. How many times have you heard Witnesses brag that they can go to a KH in any city in the world and the same thing is being taught. This is because the Society has an answer for practically everything--including the wacky prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. As long as there's something "in print" about a matter, every JW is required to accept it or else be shunned.
That's my theory, anyway.
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Understanding JW Recruiting Concepts Can Help Others To Leave
by AllTimeJeff inunderstanding jw recruiting concepts can help others to leave.
when i first left jehovah's witnesses (jw's), i was somewhat amused at the sheer amount of anti jw websites out there.
while websites like freeminds.org and jwfacts.com are great, (non hysterical sites that stress fact and presentation over emotional responses), there are at least 5 times as many other sites that act as if you should treat a jw at your door like you would a spreader of the ebola virus.. i don't disagree with the fact that jw's are somewhat dangerous and usually go for the low hanging fruit.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Great post, Jeff. I couldn't agree more. All the craziness about Satanism, Freemasonry, subliminal art, etc. does more harm than good in my opinion.
And I agree that the personal experiences can be a great benefit. I can say that from personal experience. I happened upon this site over a year before I joined. I would never have considered visiting an "apostate" site, and I felt a bit guilty for being here. If I would have registered and posted at that time, I would have been a pro-JW apologist.
But I read a few of the personal experiences, and they had the "ring of truth." If you've been in the org long enough, you're going to be mistreated by those in charge. I enjoyed reading others' accounts of such run-ins, and noted how there were similarities to mine.
Now, when I first visited the board, I was careful not to read any doctrinal threads. I rationalized that it was ok to read personal experiences, but I didn't want to read about "apostate" doctrinal ideas.
So, the moral of this story is to keep the experiences coming! I'm sure there are plenty of lurkers out there just like me who have been put through the wringer by men in power and would enjoy reading your experiences.
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2010 DC" Remain in Gods Love"...Most Unloving Yet??
by JWFreak inthe talk outlines for the summers conventions are only being printed over the next 2 weeks or so.. the finished outlines were ready in the middle of december 2009, however sources that i trust tell me that at least 5 of the talks were returned for last minute rewriting which is highly unusual.
this has held up the printing until now, a delay of over a month.
this is a fact!!.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Thanks for the tip, JWF. I could see the WT Society doing one or more of the following:
- Cracking down on "association." For example, emphasizing the need to curtail association with non-JW relatives, neighbors, school/work colleagues, and reinforcing the shunning of DF'd family members.
- Perhaps more forceful counsel regarding higher education. Despite the crackdown on college over the past few years, I've noticed plenty of JWs in "good standing" allowing their children to attend college. Perhaps the WTS feels that some strong reminders are in order.
- I would not be surprised if the Convention includes a crackdown on the Internet--especially Facebook and other social networking sites. Lots of JWs use these sites to connect with friends--including "worldly" people, DF'd people, and those of the opposite sex to whom they're not married. Some on here have noted that circuit overseers have mentioned Facebook in their "needs of the circuit" talks. That could foreshadow what we'll see at this summer's conventions.
- No doubt there will be some counsel regarding "immorality." As always, there's lots of teenage sex, drunkenness, adultery, and divorces in the Kingdom Halls. Every now and then, the WTS needs to put the fear of God into the flock. District Conventions are a good time for that.
- Dress and grooming. When I was growing up in the organization, Witnesses dressed like NERDS. Now, I can't pick most Witnesses out of a crowd. You'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) at the number of 20-something JWs with tattoos. And I'm talking about JWs in "good standing," too.
- Entertainment. Lots of JWs have let their standards slip in this respect. Sure, there are some who still toe the line, but I know lots of JWs (including those with "privileges") who don't think twice about watching R-rated movies, attending rock concerts, and going to dance clubs. Every few years, the Society cracks down entertainment. I think they're due for another.
All in all, I expect more of the same. None of my ideas listed above are new. The Society isn't going to "ban the Internet" or release some kind of "Theocratic firewall" software. Rather, they'll pick out some topics, such as the ones mentioned above, and deliver some "pointed counsel" on those points. The faithful JWs who aren't asleep will view this as "food at the proper time" and will savor the opportunity to feel superior to their fellow brothers and sisters who have the temerity to maintain a Facebook page. Ah, the joys of the spiritual paradise!
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a BIG shoutout to jwfacts
by poopsiecakes inim sure this has been mentioned many times on this site but i wanted to express my personal feelings of gratitude to paul at jwfacts.com.
paul, your site changed my life.
even though i discovered it when i was already disfellowshipped and really didnt have the intention of going back, i was still a fierce jw apologist.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Allow me to add my voice in support of jwfacts. By keeping a measured tone and focusing on quotes from WT literature, jwfacts is one of the most useful sites out there. Thanks for putting it together and keeping it up!
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Did you get hit with the "There is nothing better out there" argument?
by lepermessiah ini wish i had a dollar for everytime i heard that lately.. "your concerns are very valid, but there is nothing else out there".
"well, its not perfect - but i'm telling you, there is nothing else out there".
"yes, the organization is full of problems, but you have to understand - there is nothing else out there".
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Olin Moyles Ghost
And those who say "even if it's not the truth, it's the best way to live" have obviously never had to shun a family member or close friend.
When folks say that, I can agree with them to a point. My personal experience is that adhering to conservative "Christian" values such as honesty, hard work, faithfulness to your marriage mate, avoiding drunkenness and drug abuse, etc., is the best way to live. But there are lots of folks who live by that same moral code--many of whom belong to other religions or are even--gasp--not religious at all!
So I have no quarrel with the "moral" standards that the Witnesses and other fundamentalist groups profess. My issue is with the baggage that goes along with them--the shunning of family and loved ones, the wasting of years of your life in mindless indoctrination and literature distribution sessions, the foregoing of opportunities because The End is "right around the corner," etc.
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Did you get hit with the "There is nothing better out there" argument?
by lepermessiah ini wish i had a dollar for everytime i heard that lately.. "your concerns are very valid, but there is nothing else out there".
"well, its not perfect - but i'm telling you, there is nothing else out there".
"yes, the organization is full of problems, but you have to understand - there is nothing else out there".
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Yes, all the time. It's an effective thought-stopping technique. In fact, I used it on myself for years.
Some have told me "well, nobody else is right." My response was: "remove the 'else' from that sentence and I'll agree with you 100%."
The reason this thought-stopping technique works so well is two-fold. First, it's a nifty twist of John 6:68 where Peter asked Jesus "to whom shall we go, because you [Jesus] have sayings of everlasting life." The Society cleverly applies this scripture to the Society. Thus, when Witnesses make such statements, they honestly feel that they are applying a scriptural principle.
The second reason this technique works so well is that it takes advantage of a built-in assumption that Witnesses already have. That assumption is that God must have an organization through which he is working today. They reason that if the WT Society isn't that organization, what else could it be?
As most of us know, this is a false premise. That false premise can be deconstructed as follows. It would work best if your issue with the Society relates to 1914/607/end-times matters. (note that I don't hold any delusions that this would actually convince your garden-variety brain-dead Witness of anything, but if the person is honest and open-minded it could help).
- Point out that God has not always had an organization. Who could it have been between, say, A.D. 150 and 1850?
- So, if someone studied the Bible in 1420 and realized that the Catholic church was teaching false doctrines, should he have stayed because there was 'nowhere else to go'? Of course not.
- So, what makes today (2010) any different? The JWs will say that it's different because it's the "Last Days."
- So, if we're not really in the Last Days there's not necessarily a single organization, is there?
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JW survey
by Halya ini'm writiing a thesis on jws and am wondering if people with any connection with jws - underground jws, former jws / 'apostates', inactive jws etc would be willing to give me some feedback on these questions.
no need for any personal details, but if you want to add some information about your experiences with jws that would be appreciated.
if am interested in your answers to these questions:.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Note: I'm a "faded" Witness--meaning that I no longer participate in Witness activities and no longer believe that the Watchtower Society is the path to everlasting life, but I have not formally disassociated myself from the religion.
- What determines how you live your life? My responsibilities to my family as well as the general principle to treat others as I want to be treated.
- If your personal interpretation on a particular Bible teaching differs to how others in the congregation understand it, what is the correct procedure to resolve the issue? In the JW faith, the proper procedure is to be quiet about the matter and "wait on Jehovah"--which means to wait on the Watchtower Society to hopefully print a clarification of the issue. It is permissible to discuss such questions with congregation elders, but not permissible to discuss such questions with the general congregation.
- What kinds of qualities does a faithful Jehovah’s Witness have? Black-and-white thinking, easily led, simple, obedient, afraid.
- What kinds of things does a person need to do to become this kind of faithful Jehovah’s Witness? Regularly attend all scheduled Witness meetings, read Watchtower literature regularly, participate weekly in the Watchtower Society's literature distribution work.
- What kinds of things would a faithful Jehovah’s Witness NOT do that people in other religions do? Receive transfusions of whole blood or blood fractions that are not specifically approved by the Watchtower Society; celebrate holidays, vote in political elections; join the YMCA; attend university; play organized youth sports.
- How much time do you consider a faithful Jehovah’s Witness needs to spend in studying the Bible and Bible literature each week to develop the abilities that help them stay faithful? At least ten hours, including meetings.
- How and why is Witnessing important in being a faithful Jehovah’s Witness and why do Jehovah’s Witnesses usually go witnessing in pairs? Primarily, the "witnessing" work keeps the members busy with Watchtower activities. This along with the bi-weekly meetings keeps the Witnesses on a treadmill of activity. Thus, there is little time (outside of secular work) to pursue activities with those outside the religion. This helps to keep the Witnesses from forming relationships with those outside the religion, thus strengthening the Watchtower Society's control over the individual Witnesses. Witnesses typically go in pairs because (1) there is scriptural support for Jesus sending disciples out in pairs, (2) it is safer than going to a stranger's house alone, and (3) if one Witness gets "stumped" by a question, the other may be able to help.
- What do you think is the greatest danger to the spiritual life of a Jehovah’s Witness? The Internet with its mountains of information on the sketchy history and questionable doctrines of the Watchtower Society. Many Witnesses have no idea about the Society's history as a false prophet. The Internet puts that information at our fingertips.
- How do you use literature to engage the interest and reach the hearts of the people you witness to? When I was an active Witness, I distributed copies of various pieces of Watchtower literature to the public. I tried to pick a point from the literature that was interesting to me, and would share it with the person to whom I witnessed.
- How do you handle opposition in your witnessing work? I expected it and didn't really give it a second thought.
- What is your greatest fear as a Jehovah’s Witness? My greatest fear was being killed by God at Armageddon.
- Why do you think Jehovah’s Witnesses are growing so fast? Modern society frightens some people. Thus, we have seen an increase in all types of fundamentalist religions--from radical Islam, to fundamentalist evangelical Christians, to end-of-the-world groups. The JW faith is just another fundamentalist religion that offers simple, black-and-white answers to difficult questions. This makes some people comfortable.
- What appeals to you most about being a Jehovah’s Witness? When I was a Witness, I liked the fact that we did not believe in silly doctrines that other churches taught, such as the Trinity. Now that I'm not a Witness, I still like the fact that I don't believe in such silly doctrines...
- What do you think are the reasons for people not choosing to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ organisation? Most people simply aren't interested in changing their religion.
- The Russian government authorities are trying to ban Jehovah’s Witnesses. Why do you think they are doing this? Probably a combination of nationalism (because the JW faith is an American religion) and the Orthodox clergy trying to preserve its position against a perceived threat.
- The Russian authorities have listed 34 Watchtower publications as ‘extremist’. Which Jehovah’s Witness teachings do you think they are objecting to? Probably things such as the blood doctrine and the teaching that God will soon kill everyone who is not a Witness.
- Many Jehovah’s Witnesses are currently suffering discrimination and persecution in Russia, China and Arabic speaking countries. What do you think the persecuted Jehovah’s Witnesses should do about this? First, even though I do not believe that the JW/Watchtower faith is "the true religion," I do not support government persecution of people because of their religious beliefs. Religion is a personal matter. I think those persecuted Witnesses should examine (1) the authenticity of the Bible and (2) the history of their religion in order to make a determination whether it is worthwhile to suffer for those beliefs.
- Some people think that science has the potential to solve many of the world’s problems but scientists do not agree on scientific theories or research conclusions. Where do you think we can find scientific truth? This question makes no sense. What is "scientific truth"? Every scientist in the world will readily admit that we have a lot to learn. So, as we continue to learn more about the universe and the bodies therein, the body of "scientific truth" will continue to increase. Such knowledge can be found in reputable journals such as Nature, etc.
- Some people think the world is getting better – people are living longer; cures are being discovered for various diseases; we can travel further and faster, and communicate instantly all over the world. How do you respond to people who say there has never been a better time to be alive, despite the problems and challenges? I couldn't agree more. Even when I was a believing Witness, I would have admitted this.
- Some people think that humanity should work to make life better for everyone by people learning to share, cooperate and make room for different lifestyles and beliefs. How would a world based on these principles compare with the paradise earth preached by Jehovah’s Witnesses? It would be similar, except animals would still be wild (e.g., no petting lions) and people would still get sick and die.
- What do you think Jesus meant by his statement ‘you will know the truth and the truth will set you free’ (John 8:32)? As a Witness, I believed that this scripture meant that by learning the truth about Jesus, God, etc., you could be set free from enslavement to death and could potentially gain everlasting life.
- How would knowing the truth help those whose lives are characterised by poverty, sickness, living in countries where there are wars, corruption, injustice, and oppression? As a believing Witness, I would have said that this scripture would have a complete fulfillment in the future paradise earth, but even today such ones could have an inner peace and hope for something better.
- How has your membership in the Jehovah’s Witness organisation affected your life in this world? If you are a convert, how does your life compare to what it was before you became a Jehovah’s Witness? As a born-in Witness, my membership in the religion affected my day-to-day life in a major way. In school, I wasn't able to participate in many activities that are considered "normal" (organized sports, birthday parties) and I spent my Saturdays and school vacations wearing a suit selling religious literature. But in other ways, I lived a pretty normal life, especially as an adult. I guess you could say that I learned to compartmentalize the craziness.
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Wonderful quality RePrints of Watchtower books and Publications
by Terry inthere are a great many reasons it becomes difficult to "prove" to active jw's that the watchtower society has had an amazing series of crackpot teachings, beliefs and assertions over the years.. first off, the availability of old publications is problematic.
the society has cleverly sucked them out of the libraries of local kingdom halls.
older collectors are often dead or apostate.. ebay can provide steep asking-prices.. but--a few years back, i discovered the availability of reprints in quality self-published form on lulu.com and amazon.. these reprints are beautifully done and easier to read than an old, moth-eaten, mildew-stained yellowy tome from the early era!.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Regarding U.S. copyright law, these Russell and Rutherford era books appear to be no longer covered by U.S. copyright law any more. My layman's understanding is that anything pre-1978 is under the old copyright law which protected a work for 28 years, renewable for another 28 years. Anything after 1978 is subject to a significantly longer period of protection (life of the author + 50 or 70 years).
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Watchtower May 15,2010 "Brothers Sow to the Spirit and Reach out"
by hoser inlooks like they're almost begging for elders and ms's.
take a fresh look.
the need for overseers and ministerial servants is greater today than ever before.we.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
One more thing. The WTS is a master of using "weasel" words and phrases, but this quoted excerpt takes the cake.
We therefore urge all baptized males to take a fresh look at their circumstances and ask themselves, ‘If I am not a ministerial servant or an elder, should I analyze the reasons why I am not serving?’
So the Society is "urging" JW males to ask themselves whether they should analyze the reasons they're not serving. Why doesn't the Society urge them to analyze the reasons they're not serving?
The way this is worded, I would say to myself: "Self, should I analyze the reasons why I am not serving? No. End of story."